Wednesday, September 13, 2017

Too Many Samuel Marshmans in Wiltshire

I have a third great-grandmother, Ann Marshman (1784-1856), who married John Richman (1788-1867) in 1811 in Hilperton, Wiltshire, England.  The 1851 England/Wales census indicates that she was born in Devizes, Wiltshire.  I don't know Ann Marshman's parents.  They may have resided in Devizes or in Hilperton or some other parish in Wiltshire, but they probably resided in Hilperton in the 1811 time frame.

I received an Ancestry message, and later emails, from C, who also has a Marshman line in Wiltshire and Somerset.  Her ancestor is Samuel Marshman (about 1799-1877) who resided in Bath, Somerset in 1841, 1851 and 1861, and died there in 1877.  His birth place is given in the census records as Trowbridge, which is next to Hilperton.  C and I don't seem to be DNA cousins - it's possible that we don't meet the threshold of 6 cM in a segment that Ancestry.com uses.

However, C is a DNA cousin of P (I don't know how much cM they share).  I am also a DNA cousin of P sharing 18.2 cM in 2 DNA segments, with the common ancestors being my third great-grandparents, John Richman and Ann Marshman.  I think that this means that the segments I share with P I do not share with C, and the segments C shares with P she doesn't share with me.

C and I have been reviewing the available Marshman records for families residing in Wiltshire and Somerset in the 1780-1880 time frame.

1)  For her Samuel Marshman (1799-1877), there are seven Hints on Findmypast:


The record Hints include:

*  Parish Births in Hilperton:  Samuel Marshman baptized 10 Oct 1801, parents Samuel and Ann.
*  Parish Marriages in Twerton, Somerset:  15 Aug 1819, Samuel Marshman and Martha Bennett Dangerfield
*  *  Parish Marriages in Twerton, Somerset:  15 Aug 1819, Samuel Marshman and Martha Bennett Dangerfield
*  1841 Census for Bathwick, Bath: Samuel Marshman (age 40, born Somerset), with Martha (age 35, born 1806), Thomas (age 20, born Somerset), and John (age 14, born Somerset).
*  1851 Census for Bathwick, Bath: Samuel Marshman (age 52, butcher, born Trowbridge), Martha (age 52, butcher's wife, born Wotton-on-Edge, Glocestershire), John (age 21, butcher, born Bath).
*  1861 Census for Bathwick, Bath: Samuel Marshman ( age 65, butcher, born Trowbridge), Martha (age 62, Butcher's wife, no birthplace), John (age 30, butcher, born Bath).
*  1877 England Deaths and Burials:  Bath, Wiltshire, Samuel Marshman, died 10 Jan 1877, buried 15 Jan 1877, a butcher.

C. provided a screen shot from the Bath Record Office of this Samuel's burial in Smallcombe Vale cemetery in Bath.  The record indicates Samuel was age 89 (i.e. born 1787).  

I found another marriage record on Ancestry for a Samuel Marshman and Martha Bennett on 18 July 1819 in Melksham, Wiltshire.  This is probably the Martha Bennett Dangerfield married a month later in Bath.  I wonder why Martha's last names are different?

2)  One of the Marshman families in Hilperton is Samuel (1773-1834) and Ann (--?--) Marshman of Hilperton, who had children baptized in Hilperton between 1794 and 1818, including two sons named Samuel (one baptized in 1801, the other baptized in 1818).  My judgment is that the older Samuel born in 1801 probably died before 1818 when the second Samuel is baptized.  Therefore, he is not likely to be the Samuel Marshman (1799-1877) of Bath, born in Trowbridge.

C. found a marriage record on 6 May 1844 in Trowbridge for a Samuel Marshman (full age, bachelor, tailor, born in Trowbridge, father Samuel Marshman) and Sarah Minty (full age, spinster, born in Trowbridge, father Earl Minty).  There are census records that might be for this Samuel and Sarah Marshman in:

*  1851: Potterne, Devizes, Wiltshire - Samuel Marshman (head, age 32, baker and grocer, born in Wiltshire), Sarah Marshman (wife, age 37, grocer's wife, born in Dilton Marsh, Wiltshire).
*  1861:  St. John's Devizes, Wiltshire - Samuel Marshman (head, age 62, photographer's artist, born Hilperton Marsh, Wiltshire), Sarah Marshman (wife, age 50, no occupation, born Dilton Marsh, Wiltshire)
*  1871: Devizes, Devizes, Wiltshire - Samuel Marshman (head, age 52, no occupation, born Wiltshire) and Sarah Marshman (wife, age 52, no occupation, born Wiltshire)

NOTE:  The age in 1861 should probably be 42 rather than 62.

3)  There is a marriage record for a Samuel Marshman (son of Thomas Marshman) and Sarah Dicks on 28 February 1843 in North Bradley, Westbury, Wiltshire.  There are census records for this couple:

*  1841:  North Bradley, Westbury, Wiltshire - Samuel Marshman (age 20, born Wiltshire, son of Thomas and Sarah)
*  1851:  North Bradley, Westbury, Wiltshire - Samuel Marshman (head, age 35, a hand loom weaver, born Wiltshire), Sarah Marshman (wife, age 32, hand loom weaver, born Wiltshire), Samuel Marshman (son, age 10, born Southwick, Wiltshire), Jane Marshman (daughter, age 4, born Southwick, Wiltshire)
*  1861:  North Bradley, Westbury, Wiltshire - Samuel Marshman (head, age 45, farmer and ad laborer, born in Southwick, Wiltshire, Sarah Marshman (wife, age 42, wool handloom weaver, born Southwick, Wiltshire), and three daughters, Jane (age 17), Mary Ann (age 9), and Rhoda (age 3), all born in Southwick, Wiltshire.
*  1871:  North Bradley, Westbury, Wiltshire - Samuel Marshman (head, age 55, no occupation, born Wiltshire), Sarah Marshman (wife, age 52, no occupation, born Wiltshire), Rhoda Marshman (daughter, age 13, born Wiltshire), Sarah Marshman (daughter, age 6, born Wiltshire).

4)  There is a burial record in Lyncombe and Widcombe & St. James Cemetery in Bathwick, Bath, Somerset for a Samuel Marshman (age 62, buried 13 October 1880) with wife Sarah Marshman (age 80, buried 13 Jan 1892).  Several of C's ancestors are in this cemetery.

It is possible that this Samuel Marshman is the son of Samuel and Ann Marshman of Hilperton; the ages for both Samuel and Sarah are consistent with the other records.  Why would he be buried in Bath having spent his married life in Devizes?

He may also be some other Samuel.  He might be an illegitimate son of Samuel Marshman (1799-1877).  Or not.

5)  There were several other Samuels born in Wiltshire in the 1780-1880 time frame, and several more marriage and burial records for Samuels in this time period.  There may be Samuel Marshmans for which no birth, baptism, census, marriage or burial records are available..  

6)  The conclusions I can draw from this information is limited:

*  Samuel  Marshman #1 (1799-1877) is certainly the one buried in Smallcombe Vale in Bath.

*  My judgment is that the Samuel Marshman (born 1801 to Samuel and Ann Marshman) died before 1818.

*  It is probable that the Samuel Marshman (#2) (born 1818 to Samuel and Ann Marshman) is the one who married Sarah Minty in Trowbridge in 1844 and resided in Devizes.  He may be the one who died in Bath in 1880.  Or not!

*  It is probable that the Samuel Marshman (#3) (born about 1816 to Thomas Marshman) in North Bradley is the one who married Sarah dicks in 1843 in North Bradley, and was in the 1841-1871 census records there.

*  There may be other Samuel Marshmans.

7)  I have no clue who the parents of Samuel Marshman (about 1799-1877) is, nor do I have a clue who my Ann Marshman's parents are.  But, I think that C, P and I have a common Marshman ancestor!

Writing this out and organizing it is very helpful to me to sort out problems like this.  Unfortunately, it looks like there aren't enough records to make definite conclusions.

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Copyright (c) 2017, Randall J. Seaver


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2 comments:

stluno said...

A very nice presentation of a crazy-making situation in which you have clearly maintained your sanity! Might the current availability of digitized 19th century British (in this instance, English) newspapers be of some value? Keep us posted, please.

RonNasty said...

Thanks for posting this. I have a similar situation in my tree where I have found three men, who may actually be one man, or two or three. I'm going to see if by writing out my current information in the format that you've presented and see if it helps to make heads out of tails.